Someone Call the FBI - Part 1

Hosts Sophia Champieux and Scott Kuhlman introduce listeners to the Hot Pursuit podcast, a show that takes listeners behind the scenes of fire-related true crime cases of the Orange County Fire Authority Investigations Division. Fire Investigator Bill Strohm joins the hosts to explain how he became involved in the case and how he and other investigators initially believed the first three fires to be unrelated. Before the investigators could develop any solid leads, however, they received a report of an arson spree in progress along State Route 73. Upon arriving at the scene, investigators learned that three separate fires had been set in three different jurisdictions. Listen along to hear if the case ends in arrest.


A quick note for listeners, throughout this episode we refer to the "Behavioral Health Unit" with the FBI. We misspoke, the correct term is "FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU)."
Key Terms:

Adjudicated: A case that has been closed in the court system

Arson Spree: Three or more fires set by the same person in a short time frame

Confirmation Bias: The tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions

Honeycomb: A term used to describe the appearance of the internal components of a catalytic converter that has failed and ejected debris onto the roadway

Hot Start: An open flame ignition, like the flame from a lighter, match, torch, or road flare

Transcript

Hot Pursuit

Speaker 1 0:00

Okay, listeners, on today's podcast we have a story of multiple fires that occur along Highway 73 in October of 2021. Investigators discover multiple delayed devices along the side of the road with the intention of starting wildland fires. Follow along as multiple agencies from state to federal join us in attempting to solve this case and identifying who it is and how to capture them. This is Hot Pursuit.

Speaker 2 0:30

Stories from the fire investigation's front line. This was a type of unpredictable weather event the Orange County Fire Authority had trained for.

Speaker 1 0:38

Firefighters responded to the 2200 block of South Susan Street.

Speaker 3 0:42

The report of a commercial structure fire.

Speaker 2 0:44

Fire investigators are still working on their full report about the cause of the fire.

Speaker 3 0:50

Investigators need to pick through the debris and answer important questions like how did the fire start?

Speaker 2 0:55

The suspect was arrested and charged with four counts of arson, as well as reckless endangerment. Welcome to Hot Pursuit, the podcast where we dive into the mysteries and investigations of fire-related true crime cases of the Orange County Fire Authority Investigations Division. I'm Sophia Champeau.

Speaker 1 1:11

And I am OCFA Fire Captain and Fire Investigator Scott Kuhlman, and together we'll take you behind the scenes of some of Orange County's most fascinating and often chilling fire investigations, from arson to accidental fires. We'll explore the evidence, the suspects and the untold stories that emerge from the ashes.

Speaker 2 1:29

Every episode will bring you a new case, breaking down the events that led to the fire, and talk to the experts, including fire investigators, law enforcement and forensic specialists, to give you an inside look at how these cases are solved. Just like you, I'll be hearing these stories for the first time, so sit back, relax and join us as we uncover the hidden truths behind some of Orange County's most intriguing fire investigations.

Speaker 1 1:49

This is Hot.

Speaker 2 1:50

Pursuit. Good morning Scott. I can't believe we're finally here.

Speaker 1 1:55

I know. Good morning Sophia. This is, I guess, what we're calling. It's serendipitous.

Speaker 2 2:03

I would agree for sure. What we're calling it's serendipitous, I would agree for sure. This has been a passion project of mine, for sure, and I'm so happy that you were able to jump on this podcast journey with me and I convinced you to talk not only about investigations, which is always hard to talk about with investigators, but also the great work that you guys do on these cases and how lucky we are as Orange County citizens to be not only protected but looked out for by our awesome investigators.

Speaker 1 2:31

That's very nice of you to say that and I appreciate you spotlighting some of the cases that we have. But before we get into that, let's tell the listeners like how we even how this even occurred.

Speaker 2 2:44

Yes, Just the randomness of it, the true serendipitousness, yeah, that's the word of it yeah, do you want to start?

Speaker 1 2:50

I'll start with how I came in and met to you. Okay, so I remember it was a hot day, I just collected evidence and so we have to drop off our evidence. Here at headquarters. We have a secure facility. I was hot, I secure facility, I was hot. I still had like soot on me. I was probably not smelling the best, yeah, and so I was going back to our main office and then I was going to head to head or back to the station to shower up and I see you.

Speaker 1 3:18

And then I've been wanting to get in contact with you because you were just killing it on the social media and I had a bunch of questions. I'm like, man, this, she really got this down. And so I run into you. I'm like, uh, hey, sophia Scott Coleman. You're like, yeah, how's it going? And so we started talking and I'm like, hey, I need some help with this. And I'm looking at marketing. And we started talking about podcasts and you did some. I don't know if you realize you did it. I'm like, yeah, I'm involved in this pocket. And you kind of like did an Elaine from Jerry Seinfeld? You're like get out.

Speaker 2 3:51

You've kind of pushed me and you're like I couldn't believe it An investigator talking to me about wanting to talk about his cases.

Speaker 1 3:57

That's like well then you're like I just left a meeting five minutes ago, so you take it from there. That's how I remember it.

Speaker 2 4:02

Okay, so, yes, so I have. There's a certain day a week I always have my one-on-ones with my boss, and part of my job is to be proactive in our strategies and reaching our communities and things like that, and so I had been toying around with this idea of a podcast before, and so I actually that morning had pitched it to my boss and he loved the idea, and so in my little brain I was going a thousand miles a minute. Okay, now I got to get buy-in for this and I got to find someone who wants to do it with me and all the things that start going through someone's brain. And I was just crossing the street, walking something over to purchasing, and all of a sudden I hear, hey, are you the social media girl? And I was like this is going to go one of two ways. He's either going to be so excited, or he?

Speaker 2 4:45

has something to talk to me about that he's not excited about. And then, yes, I do remember we started talking about podcasts and just our different ideas on how to best promote the agency, and the fact that you wanted to do this with me was awesome, and I think that day, even like an hour later, we were already on the phone brainstorming different cases and who we could have on the show.

Speaker 1 5:03

So definitely serendipitous. Yeah, it was good timing because the investigator that we're bringing on in our I guess pilot episode. He has done a lot of good cases recently, but there's one that I wanted to make aware that took a lot of work, a lot of time, wanted to get it celebrated and what a great avenue for the citizens to understand what services we provide and how we go about solving some of these really intense cases. But can you explain to the listeners? So what's the format? How do we want to do this? What can they expect?

Speaker 2 5:41

Absolutely so. When I came to OCFA and this is a little bit relevant too for the podcast is I actually came from a law enforcement background. I'm doing very similar communications, pr, social media and I always found it so interesting the behind the scenes that people don't get to see every day, and that's really what I wanted to show them on social media. And so when we were talking, when I came to OCFA and I saw, oh wow, we actually have our own investigators, I thought that was in and of itself cool. And then I thought and then I found out that not only are you guys full fledged firefighters that go through the academy and, you know, do your rotation, startup as a rookie, everything. And not only are you a full fledged firefighter, you are full-fledged cop, you guys carry guns, you guys do these full-fledged investigations, you go out and teach fire investigations.

Speaker 2 6:28

And I thought this is such an incredible way to share with our communities all of the hard work that you guys do and something that they probably don't even know exists, because I didn't know exists and I was already in this world, so I really love that you're on board with the opportunity of not only showcasing the hard work but the cases of our mutual aid cases to our partners in law enforcement, our partners at the district attorney's office federally state all of them, and so I think this is a very, very interesting way to look behind the scenes at all of everything and the hard work that you guys do.

Speaker 1 7:00

So well, thank you for that. And then you don't know that I'm going to say this, but it's funny because I was made aware of you. We were on some large incident in just before you came over, but it was told to us that they've hired a new social media, and so I'm sitting there with law enforcement the local sheriff, specifically, and your boss was in front of me and we'd been sitting there for, yeah, and I can't remember the incident now, but we were. It was an all day thing. I think there was some potential riot or something that was going to occur, and so she was very nice and I'm like, hey, can I get you some drinks? And she's like, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 7:37

And she goes hey, actually I got to let you know, you have one of our best social media. People come out. I'm like, oh really, she goes, yeah, she's starting. We're so sad to lose her. And then I've seen your work since then and I'm like, well, you're actually really good at it. So I'm like that's cool that we got you. But for the listener, how was this format set up as far as what's my role and your role, and what can they expect to hear as far as how these cases will unfold?

Speaker 2 8:09

How are we approaching this? So we're approaching it the way to help our audience best understand it and absorb it. So I'm coming into these cases completely blind, as our audience is.

Speaker 2 8:18

So, really, I'm going to help make sure you guys remember to say what the acronyms mean and explain the cases and kind of ask just like layman questions, stuff that you guys find day to day but that we find in our normal day to day life very fascinating.

Speaker 2 8:36

So each of our cases are going to be specific to the Orange County communities. We're going to do a lot of cases, obviously, here that we've investigated with our investigators at OCFA, but we're also hope to bring on some of our mutual aid cases as well and highlight the good work and the partnership that we've done in the community. We're so excited that we're going to have 10 episodes for our Orange County communities to listen to and we're actually going to end with an episode that we're asking our communities help with. It is not an adjudicated case so it is not solved yet. We actually have some great evidence that we get to share with you guys too to help us find this person. So we hope that you follow along, you listen along with us on this journey. We're hoping to release one new episode every other week for the next couple months and then we'll get to that last one where we really need your guys' help.

Speaker 1 9:19

And as an active investigator in this section here at the Orange County Fire Authority. We really do need your help. We're going to give you some good information at the final episode. We do have phone lines set aside just for this incident. So if you continue to listen on, you understand how we start to work these cases. We hope that as a community effort and as we work for you but sometimes some of our best partners are you, our citizens If we can work together for this case, it would mean a lot to us and certain people in the community. It'll make more as we get towards the 10th episode, but that's really what we're working towards at the end, so we hope you follow along. There'll be a compelling 10 episodes. You'll learn a little bit about what we do and what your local investigators do and who we work with. So I'm excited. Let's get this going. Let's go.

Speaker 1 10:04

So let's start off with what's adjudicated mean.

Speaker 2 10:08

That's a great yes. Adjudicated just means that it is essentially the case has been closed in the court system. So we've gone through all the testimonies have been read, the jury has determined guilt or not guilt, and it's they've been, and they're either in jail or they're not in jail. So essentially the case is closed. So that allows our investigators to share a lot more details on the case that they don't normally do or that they can't really when they're investigating a case. So this really gives us a unique opportunity to see the details, the evidence, photos, all of that exciting stuff that us true crime diehards love to see. And we will also be uploading all of the materials on our website so that everyone can not only follow along while they're listening, but catch up if they're binging us on the feed, hopefully.

Speaker 1 10:59

Okay. Well, so for our first case, it's really funny that you said our federal, our state, our mutual aid, brothers and sisters. This case that's coming up involves basically everybody.

Speaker 2 11:15

These two yeah.

Speaker 1 11:17

So I'm excited for this one. I'm very proud of this case. I'm proud of the investigation work our section did, our brothers and sisters at the state level, federal level, and it came to an unexpected conclusion for us. But that's the one we'll be diving in today. It's so involved and there's a lot of moving pieces that this will be a two-parter.

Speaker 2 11:42

I love two-parters.

Speaker 1 11:44

We're going to drag you and the listeners through two episodes for this, but the payoff at the end, when you find out who it is and then how it came to its finality, it'll be worth it I can't wait to hear it. Yes, so for this case. So you know nothing about this?

Speaker 2 12:00

case. Right, I don't, no, I'm going in totally blind.

Speaker 1 12:03

I know.

Speaker 2 12:10

And you're pretty excited I am.

Speaker 1 12:11

I am a true crime junkie at heart. So Shambini Ramsey, scott Peterson, let's talk about it. So she's literally levitating off her chair right now, so I can't help it. I'm just going to give you like a quick synopsis and I'll leave it to the investigator to come in and tell his investigation and when it went and I'll kind of guide you.

Speaker 1 12:25

But it's all started around October 2021. It's along the corridor called the 73. We had multiple little fires in and around that area, which led to us really focusing on a specific area and throughout the investigation, you'll just be surprised at what we found and what occurred and how this investigator and our brothers and sisters from both the federal level and state level worked to bring this case to a conclusion. Now, just for those who don't know, the 73 is a high, like wild land area, has a lot of potential to take off. So we take every fire serious, but when we notice these kinds, we get very worried because it can take out a whole community in a matter of an hour. So, saying that, I want to introduce you to Investigator Bill Strom, with the Orange County Fire Authority.

Speaker 2 13:19

Welcome. We're so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 13:21

Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 13:24

So, bill, I know this. We worked with a lot of people on this case, yes, but you were the lead investigator on our side.

Speaker 3 13:33

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 13:34

Correct, so Can we talk about. Can you lead us in to how we even discovered, or when we started to recognize, some kind of pattern or issue in this specific area?

Speaker 3 13:46

Yeah, so early in the week before I went on days off, we had a fire on the Ortega.

Speaker 1 13:54

Yeah.

Fire Investigation Shift Work Success

Speaker 3 13:56

And it came back from the investigators that were on scene that was undetermined and they weren't able to rule out some unintentional causes but as well as arson, and that was noted and didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that, because fires happen from time to time and that's that's our business. But prior to that, on a Sunday following that week, we had another fire fire that kicked off on the Ortega and so that was kind of pinging on our radar is that we had three in a very, very close area. So as a day investigator my job's a little different, where I handle the criminal follow-up and I handle cases that are going to extend. The investigation is going to extend past a day or two.

Speaker 1 14:44

But I should probably clarify for our listeners that our section. So I'm what's considered a shift investigator, meaning I work the 24-hour shift.

Speaker 2 14:50

Okay, much like our PIOs, like A, b, c shift, correct, okay?

Speaker 1 14:54

perfect, so I'll do 48 hours on, and then we have our days off.

Speaker 2 14:56

For our shift work here at OCFA for operations folks. They have two days on, four days off, and so it ends up being an A, B and C shift, and each of those is two days in a row. I know I'm dumbing it down a little bit there, but that's essentially what it is. And then we do have other operations folks who work other hours, so that might be helpful as well.

Speaker 1 15:16

So the shift work which I do, we just respond and we go from fire to fire, to fire to fire. Now the reason I think the Orange County Fire Authority is so successful with its both determining an arson and then conviction rate of arson is because we have Bill and other day guys who, if I'm at a scene and I need to pull video or I need to interview somebody who's just not there at that time, I write from the scene a follow-up request and then Bill goes out and he'll continue any kind of extended work which from the previous agency Bill and I were with. We never enjoyed that, so we didn't have a very high success rate in any kind of either capture or conviction for arson. We just didn't have that follow up.

Speaker 2 16:04

So yeah, the additional resources basically.

Speaker 1 16:07

I think this day shift position is the reason our section is so, so successful, and I noticed that a lot of other agencies are looking at it as a wow, you do have a lot of success rate. Looking at it as a wow, you do have a lot of success rates. So that's his role and that's why we do. That's why we're able to stay on these calls until it comes to some kind of conclusion.

Speaker 3 16:27

So coming into work on on Monday morning we realized that we kind of had three fires in a very tight area, that that's happened over a course of about a week, since that fire occurred on a Sunday coming in on a Monday decided to take some liberties to drive out there. So me and my day shift partner drove out there and we met the two investigators that were on scene. When we were on scene we kind of observed just kind of a typical debris field vegetation. The fire itself, the burn scar itself was no bigger than 10 by 10. We seen that the fire could have potentially started from the road and moved its way in. But on the outskirts of the debris pile, as we looked on the outside, we were able to see that there was what looked like maybe potential road litter. In that road litter there was a couple plastic bottles that had some material stuffed in them and it looked like, maybe even like, a potential device.

Speaker 2 17:41

And how about? You said this was like right on the edge of the side of the road, or was it in a little bit?

Speaker 3 17:44

It was about 10 to 15 feet from the road.

Speaker 2 17:46

Oh okay, it's like a good amount.

Speaker 3 17:47

Yeah, and kind of hidden behind a big oak tree. And this oak tree was distinct because it actually overhanged the road so it looked like it would be someplace that somebody might want to pull over and take a nap or get some shade or maybe make their last cell phone call before they lose reception take a nap or get some shade or maybe make their last cell phone call before they lose reception.

Speaker 1 18:03

If I can interject, that's an important part about the reception too on the cell phone. But I remember the previous two fires we thought so. Sometimes, for use of it, we'll call a fire undetermined, meaning we can't conclusively tell you how it started. So some of the things and I remember on these fires specifically, they were close to the roadside and there was a place where all of them had some kind of road litter and we knew there was human activity at or around or near there so people could discard a cigarette. So we have to look at all these. So the previous two fires I remember we classed as undetermined. But arson or an intentionally set fire was one of the ones we couldn't exclude.

Speaker 2 18:42

So it essentially keeps your options open should you find out additional information down the line that would affect the investigation. Basically, yeah.

Speaker 1 18:48

So we're just looking, we're like, well, it looks like there's smoking material here and it's close enough to the road that if there's some kind of spark or Cadillac converter incident even though we didn't find clues of a Cadillac converter failure from your car we'd look at everything. And so on the first two, we're like we can't really find a source, but I can't conclusively eliminate like a smoking material, but also I can't find another competent ignition source, so we're going to have to leave an intentionally set fire on the table for these two.

Speaker 1 19:17

Sure Not knowing there's a pattern or anything coming right.

Speaker 2 19:19

Right.

Speaker 1 19:20

Correct. Yeah yeah, so you're on the third fire now, and then you find this road litter that at first you thought was nothing.

Speaker 3 19:26

Right, yeah. So we find this road litter and as we begin to look at this, my partner's like kind of going around the edge and he's like, yeah, it appears to be burned on the end of this. What we? I'm going to just go ahead and call it a device now.

Speaker 1 19:42

Bill, could you describe that, what you're seeing, the device, because I know we have a photo of it.

Speaker 3 19:46

Yeah, so this is a. It's very basic. It's a Gatorade bottle with what appears to be a paper towel on the end of it and the end of the paper towel has burning around it, but there's no degradation, there's no burning that actually extends past this bottle. It's just a Gatorade bottle with a burnt piece of paper.

Speaker 2 20:05

And there's no liquid in it that you could see, and there's zero liquid in it Interesting.

Speaker 3 20:09

So, anyways, we pull this apart and we decided to take it as evidence. So we go ahead and mark it appropriately and photograph it. Mark it appropriately and photograph it. And as we begin to dissect this, as we pull this out, this piece of paper that we look at as a paper towel is actually a gauze wrapper. It's just a paper wrapper that you would put a piece of sterile gauze in and within that we looked on the opposite end of that piece of paper, that gauze wrapper, and we were able to identify that there was degradation on the other end of it too. So it looks like somebody intentionally lit both ends of this piece of paper and stuck it in this Gatorade bottle as a potential device to start a fire.

Speaker 1 20:56

Bill, can I jump in real quick? Sure, absolutely so, just for Sophia. So when they first saw the bottle and the paper towels coming out and it had fire damage on the end, that's already laying in the inner around the brush.

Speaker 2 21:08

Okay.

Speaker 1 21:08

We couldn't, we weren't sure that the fire didn't burn up to that and burn that end. You know what I'm saying. Oh, I see, but when we took the paper out, as he described, and then we saw burning on the inside, there's no way the fire is going to jump. So we knew somebody intentionally set both ends.

Speaker 2 21:23

Right, you couldn't OK.

Speaker 1 21:24

So Bill's like oh well, this is different.

Speaker 2 21:26

Sorry.

Speaker 3 21:27

Bill.

Speaker 2 21:27

Immediately piques your interest.

Speaker 3 21:28

Correct and we're looking at this and we're like, like Scott was saying, that this was on the outside of the fire and this is potentially a device that may have been used to start a fire.

Speaker 2 21:39

It also seems like adding that length of paper gives them time to run away or like, get away from Absolutely Right the definition of a device would be to accelerate a fire or delay the start of a fire.

Speaker 3 21:50

Oh, ok, that's what people use it for, and in this one, particularly because it was on the outside of what we call the burn scar, particularly because it was on the outside of what we call the burn scar, it was a potential failed device and that's of some interest. And we're like looking at it and we're like pretty sure this didn't communicate to the burn that there was something else that may have started this fire, but nevertheless this might have been an attempt. So we took this piece of evidence and we processed it and with the crime lab. Anytime that we submit evidence to the crime lab I mean especially dealing with DNA we could be up to four to five months that's not uncommon before we get results on this.

Speaker 2 22:34

And our crime lab. From my understanding is, we've actually cleared a lot of our backlog as compared to other agencies too, right? So we're doing pretty good in comparison, aren't we?

Speaker 3 22:42

A hundred percent. That's amazing. Our crime lab does so shout out to them.

Speaker 2 22:45

They're doing the hard work.

Speaker 1 22:46

We actually enjoy a very good relationship with our crime lab. They come out and teach with us. We bring students there and we walk through the crime lab. We have a very good relationship with our crime lab.

Speaker 2 22:55

I've written along with one of their I'm not sure the exact title, so I'm going to say technician. However, they were so gracious. I learned so much, so shout out to them for sure.

Speaker 3 23:05

Awesome, awesome. So now we have this data that we've collected and we're looking at this fire in particular if not the other two that we have, because we're at three at this point as being potentially related. So I take this data back to our office, I'm talking with my partners and we're going through this and we start putting it on a whiteboard, basically like all the different scenarios that we could be running across, kind of what we're thinking Is this just a one-off, is this just somebody that made a bad decision, that was having a bad day, or is this going to be something bigger down the road? But we want to get ahead of it? So we feel like we're in a good place having this evidence processed.

Speaker 3 23:51

And then we start going and I pull the other two case files and as I start going through these other two case files, I notice some interesting things that are interesting to me and and um, some of the data that's in these files it's talking about how they're called in, you know. So we have 911 data and whatnot. So the first, the first, very first fire that was noted to us was was actually right around um, the Halloween, halloween time and um, I'm thinking, ah, maybe the Halloween time and I'm thinking maybe kids you know, I'm not sure what's going on. This was called in by a passerby and the fire never really got that big 10 feet. So this fire over here still could not really connecting them right, this fire over here, even though the time frame's short and they're in close proximity of each other. But this could be a complete one-off.

Speaker 2 24:41

And what time of day were these calls coming in?

Speaker 3 24:45

Two o'clock. That's a great question because as we go through this process, all of them seem to be mid-afternoon to just before dark.

Speaker 2 24:54

Is that typically an uncommon time for someone to do an arson, or is there any typical arson? I guess is the better question?

Speaker 1 25:00

In my experience, there is no. I mean late at night typically Cover of dark.

Fire Investigation and Suspicious Patterns

Speaker 2 25:05

Yeah, no rhyme or reason. Yeah, there's not.

Speaker 3 25:07

And then the Ortega is as we all know, those that have driven it. It's a major thoroughfare between Orange County and Riverside, so people are going up and over the Ortega all the time. So traffic builds up in the morning coming to work and at the five o'clock hour going home, traffic kind of builds up again, you know, and then there's parts that you lose cell phone reception and there's, you know, people pull over to make that last call before they go over the hill, the last work call, last call home, whatever, whatever the situation may be.

Speaker 2 25:45

Yeah, for those at home, the 74 Ortega Highway is a pretty rural area and a lot of brush, a lot of what?

Speaker 1 25:50

our firefighters or our operations. People would consider fuel for the fire Basically. Just it's going to go fast if it does light, and I can tell you that I've been on a number of fire-related roadside fires there, but they were a result of improperly discarded smelting material, specifically in a certain area there where students would park on the side and then they would throw away. But these appeared to be different at that time.

Speaker 3 26:06

Correct, correct, yes. And then the second fire that we were pinging on was also on a Sunday. What was interesting about this one is this fire was reported by a patrol, a fire patrol that was going up and down a brush rig, that was going up and down the Ortega, in between two fire stations that are on the Ortega. You kind of screech in the office because we're looking at this device that we have, that we've pulled apart as we're going through it. It's gauze, but it's not the normal gauze that you'd find at a pharmacy or a convenience store. This was the packaging on it was specific to a major vendor, a vendor that I've seen on calls throughout my career, like a healthcare vendor type, a vendor that I've seen on calls throughout my career.

Speaker 1 27:04

Like a health care vendor type thing. Well, absolutely that both EMTs, firefighters.

Speaker 2 27:07

So specific individuals have access to.

Speaker 1 27:08

First responders use.

Speaker 3 27:10

Okay, yes, and the eerie part about the Gatorade bottle was it's very typical to what we would see on a brush fire that we use to rehab, that we use to rehab, so this being called in by a brush rig and we're running across some medical supplies that are typical to what we have in any one of our trauma bags and some other road debris that's on the road. Some other debris that's on the road far as you know sound trappers and hamburger cartons and stuff like that Kind of you know. You know it looks like the one.

Speaker 3 27:40

actually one of my partners said this looks like the front seat of of any fire engine on a strike team oh no, and your spidey sensors are going off, spidey senses are going off and we realize that we may have an issue, because now we have three of these fires that are that are pretty close and then we're finding we're finding it being called in by a first responder not through through 9-1-1. And we're kind of circling the wagons a little bit and trying to so just to be clear, Bill, who moved into your potential suspect?

Speaker 1 28:09

that needed to be eliminated file.

Speaker 3 28:12

Right. So obviously we looked at the crew that was responding that day, the crew that called it in. We started backtracking our 911 callers and the suspect pool was big and broad.

Speaker 1 28:27

So basically, our. Emts, firefighters, we just entered your suspect pool.

Speaker 2 28:32

That's correct. Dun dun dun.

Speaker 3 28:34

Yeah, that's correct On a small yes.

Speaker 2 28:36

Your Gatorade gave it away.

Speaker 3 28:38

No, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. Not necessarily as broad as a big paintbrush stroke, but it was definitely the people that were around that day were being considered.

Speaker 1 28:52

So the thing with that is that as our unit, our section investigation section here in OCFA and that's, we have to protect some of the information. And because there was becoming peak interest and like, well, what's going on on that Ortega, we can't really talk about that because we don't know, especially if it's refining material that's consistent with first responders and the way it's getting called in, and we're like, hey, because everybody knows everybody and everybody talks. So we had to keep it quiet. It was so uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 29:25

Yeah Well, that's hard and it's almost. Is it harder having that information?

Speaker 3 29:30

and not being able to share it. Yes, I'd rather not know, or is it?

Speaker 2 29:31

harder to not know the information.

Speaker 1 29:33

Yes, I'd rather not. I wish you wouldn't have told me. But anyway, go ahead, bill, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 29:41

Some of the other pieces of our investigation that we started was we liaison with Irvine PD and the Sheriff's Department and we have a really good working relationship with both Orange County Sheriffs and Irvine PD and we started pulling LPR information the license plate readers.

Speaker 2 30:02

Okay, I was just about to ask what's an. Lpr. Oh, so we started for those time frames of these fires.

Speaker 3 30:05

So we started collecting the data on these plates, the license plate readers Okay, I was just about to ask what's an LPR. So we started for those timeframes of these fires. So we started collecting the data on these plates. But, as I said earlier, we have a lot of traffic coming up and down the Ortega, so trying to find a match where we could have the same vehicle in the area at the same time became quite a challenge. Additionally to that, after these fires were identified to be kind of linked and I would say the biggest thing that linked us to these fires was the geographic location there, literally, two of these fires the first two of these fires were within 10 feet of each other.

Speaker 2 30:40

Okay, so let's recap really quick for our audience too. So so far there's three fires.

Speaker 3 30:44

We have three fires.

Speaker 2 30:45

Okay, recap really quick for our audience too. So so far there's three fires. We have three fires okay, three total fires, all of which you have debris near the fires, on the side of the road, or just the first two have the debris as well no, so the, the, it was actually the third fire where we okay, we were able to pull the um, the gatorade bottle that we're going to call our device our device. Okay, and all three happened on the sunday around they happened they?

Speaker 3 31:06

Two of them happened on a Sunday, one of them happened on a Wednesday.

Speaker 2 31:09

Okay.

Speaker 3 31:10

And they were all within a month of each other.

Speaker 2 31:11

Okay, perfect, awesome. Just recapping for our audience.

Speaker 3 31:15

Correct, and it's important to say that the investigators had these fires as undetermined at this time term, at this time, so there was nothing really pointing to arson other than what we have a suspected device and we are waiting on DNA results that could take multiple months.

Speaker 2 31:34

Got it.

Speaker 3 31:36

So that's kind of where we sit on that.

Speaker 2 31:40

So in the meantime, while you're waiting for the DNA or if there's DNA, or anything on there. You're being proactive with these license plate readers.

Speaker 3 31:46

We're being proactive. We're going about business in the office as normal. Our shift investigators are still investigating fires, our day investigators are still working other cases. But this is in the background, and the things that we're doing in the background is collecting and analyzing the data on the license plates, and we're also we put up trail cams. So and then with these particular trail cams they're it's anything that you'd find like at a regular Bass Pro, but it also has a timestamp on it and with that timestamp we're also able to collaborate. You know ignition times and whatnot and other things like that. So we're trying to collect as much data as we can and hoping that this problem isn't tied to a serial arsonist or even an arson spree.

Speaker 1 32:47

Could you explain the difference between the spree and serial arsonist?

Multiple Fires Investigation Coordination

Speaker 3 32:51

Yeah, so a serial arsonist is somebody that's just going to keep going and they're motivated by different things. But the difference between a spree and a serial arsonist would be. A spree would be somebody's having a really bad day, they're maybe off the rocker a little bit and they just want to. They just want to put fire on the ground and they'll light a series of fires. Um, I think nfpa don't hold me to this. Um puts a spree at three or more okay.

Speaker 2 33:20

So it's kind of like a serial killer, like yeah, but in a short time frame okay, in a short time frame. Okay, okay, in a short time frame.

Speaker 3 33:26

Okay, so we're at the three fires, but they're within a month, but they're within days apart.

Speaker 2 33:33

Do the charges ever differ if it's one versus the other or arson is?

Speaker 3 33:37

arson? No, they don't Okay, maybe more counts.

Speaker 2 33:40

Yeah.

Speaker 3 33:41

Okay, against them.

Speaker 1 33:42

It would just be for the DA would take advantage of how to inform the jury of what to consider but, we're going to charge them with arson period.

Speaker 3 33:52

Yeah, so we have these three fires, we're moving, we're moving past that, we're looking through, we're looking, we're starting to collect the data on this right kind of our spidey senses are, are, are up and I think we're all kind of hoping that that, um, maybe one of our hypotheses of a first responder is wrong and um, but nevertheless we're, we're just keeping off normal business and, um, we actually great timing. On that question about arson spree, we actually do have a spree on the Ortega and this individual is coming south on the Ortega and we get a description. He's coming south on the Ortega and there is a report of three fires being lit actively on the Ortega.

Speaker 2 34:38

So this is one day you get a 911 call and they're saying there are three little fires that just got started on the Ortega and this guy's heading your way kind of thing. Oh my gosh, Talk about serendipitous Okay.

Speaker 3 34:49

And we have a suspect that is being described as a male with a white T-shirt on and blue jeans and he's going south on the Ortega and he's from the candy store at the top of the Ortega. There was a start, just past a campground off the Ortega, there was a second start and then, right before the Forest Service Station, there was the third start.

Speaker 2 35:14

Oh my goodness, and that was three separate 911 calls.

Speaker 3 35:17

That was three, that was a, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe it was five different 911 calls that were received on this.

Speaker 2 35:27

Okay, shout out to our community members for calling that in. That's incredible, yeah, awesome.

Speaker 3 35:31

Yeah, so we feel good about that. Obviously, our office clears out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:40

We're all taking a trip to the Ortega.

Speaker 3 35:43

I'm liaising with my coworkers in Irvine and the Sheriff's Department. We're all making our way there. The Sheriff's Department immediately goes to the cameras. I'm getting feedback on what's coming down as far as license plates and we begin working this heading that direction, just to go to work. Work in this head in that direction, just to go to work. As we arrive on scene, we have a approximately six acres with moderate rate of spread going up the Ortega just past the Forest Service fire station. Right there, and it's getting busy. I tie in with the Forest Service, tie in with the Forest Service officer. He lets me know right away that this is my lucky day, that this is all his dirt and I agreed with him.

Speaker 1 36:38

But can you explain to Sophia what that statement means?

Speaker 3 36:42

Of course, of course. So this actually was burning in the Cleveland. So the first start actually happened at the Riverside County line, at the candy store that would have been Riverside County. Cal Fire was the handle on that, and then the other two that that were actually in the Cleveland National Forest, so that was.

Speaker 2 37:05

So now we have three different jurisdictions.

Speaker 3 37:07

So we have three different jurisdictions.

Speaker 2 37:10

How many fires is that that showed up to play fires? Three different jurisdictions.

Speaker 3 37:13

That's correct, yes, and as we continue to to to work this, I get a report of another fire up the road impossible suspect. So we we respond up to this, this particular campground, to find out that it was just a poor survey crew that was actually surveying the campground. It was really surprising. They had four armed officers coming in.

Speaker 2 37:39

Felony car. Stop on them, and they're just doing their job, oh man.

Speaker 3 37:44

But no, they were great. They completely understood and, yeah, they obviously weren't responsible for this, or did they have any report or knowledge of what was going on?

Speaker 2 37:55

Shout out to those guys. That's a story I'm sure that they continue to tell.

Speaker 3 38:03

So after clearing that with the survey team that was up there, we we made our way back down and um. I tied in with um, the forest service, um, to offer any assistance that OCFA can help and um.

Speaker 2 38:14

So did they like, did they intercept him when they were coming through?

Speaker 1 38:17

Oh, the person setting the fires.

Speaker 2 38:18

Yeah, so he's essentially making his way to you, right?

Speaker 3 38:21

Correct, Correct. So yeah, we, so no, no, we do not catch him. Ok he's, he slips through, slips through. There's no one in the area that meets that description. I guess there was both sides of the Ortega Riverside County and Orange County was working the suspect description there was no stop to my knowledge that was made and yeah, so there's no suspect at this time.

Speaker 3 38:55

but I tie in with the Forest Service to see how I can aid in their investigation. And we right then and there we kind of created the they were aware of what was happening on the Orange County side. They've had a couple reports of somebody going up and down the Ortega that was impersonating a police officer and that they were aware of activity. But they this is the first that the first fire that they've had on the ground for the season at this time.

Speaker 2 39:20

And at that time that you were talking with him and your brain you're thinking, ok, these could be connected. So you're, at your information, sharing certain things with those investigators, right, well, yes, and it was kind of again.

Speaker 3 39:30

You know, Scott, I'll let Scott talk to confirmation bias, but I didn't really want to, you know, put too much on on this investigator right right now, as he's just he and his and I've been there. You have three fires, you know in a pretty rapid, quick pace of time and you get that overwhelm of information and it begins to cloud your decision making and kind of basically what you're seeing and what you're feeling as far as how this fire moved and grew and all those other important facts. So I try not to, didn't want to give too much to him right away, but definitely we're going to have a good conversation when this is, when he's good with his findings.

Speaker 1 40:12

So just a confirmation bias, just so you know how we operate at OCFA. And it came through I teach the investigation series through the state and I teamed up with an attorney general and then a defense attorney from the Innocence Center out of San Diego so I'm able to keep up on the trends and what's going on and, plus, I've always done that anyway and the confirmation bias is a real thing. I never really understood that until about five years ago. So confirmation bias, basically, is I start getting information that, let's say, sophia, you and your husband have a fight and you're yelling and he was yelling and then he got mad. So in my mind I'm already thinking, oh, somebody intentionally said that I'm putting that in there.

Speaker 1 40:58

And if I'm a lazy investigator or if this is my fifth one of the day and it's three in the morning, you just start to find things that support that hypothesis. You don't. The whole intent of the way we do it, we being fire investigators, is you want to disprove your theory, you don't want to confirm it. You're always trying to disprove it. That way you don't get caught up in this. But how OCFA does it is if I'm doing the origin and cause or actually looking at the fire scene and, let's say, bill's my partner, he's gathering witness statements video. I don't want to talk to anybody, I just want to do a forensic scene exam and just let the fire patterns and fire effects tell me what, as far as I can go with, where the fire originated and what the cause is.

Speaker 1 41:42

Without any outside, without any just because they're asking us, even in preliminary. So if I, when I file a case, even in the prelim, which is before you go to trial, the defense attorneys or the public are asking you when did you know this information? Because it is a real thing, and so, um, I won't. He will not my he being bill, the guy with all the information, the ancillary will not tell me anything until I approach him. So we just did this last night.

Speaker 1 42:07

I was on a fire last night. It was a garage fire. I went to my partner. I'm like, hey, I know some things. Do you want to know he goes. No, he wanted to find the area of origin by himself. I had eyewitness statements saying this is where they saw it. And then we stuff that they reported are consistent with the bike failing. But my partner didn't want to know. He did his own scene exam, came back and said hey, I think it's his bike, here's what I see. And I'm like, yeah, you nailed it. But that way he wasn't influenced at all by anything. So that's what he's trying to say. Like we don't want to pollute this federal investigator's opinion of what's going on.

Speaker 2 42:44

Yeah, yeah, that's no. That's incredible that you guys do that, and that's also something that I didn't know. So I'm glad our community members know, too that we're doing everything, or they're doing everything in their power to ensure that everything's accurate and unbiased. So I love that. Great job, guys.

Speaker 3 43:00

So I tied back in with Mike, who's the federal investigator on the on the fire, and I asked him what his findings were. And he tells me he's got an undetermined fire, that he did find some debris from a Cadillac converter and he says it makes sense. He's been at this fire station right here, it's in very close proximity. He says people in trucks are forced to hit their jake brakes all the time going down the hill and then he goes and I also, you know, can't eliminate smoking. I found a cigarette here and he wanted to talk about the weather and the wind. That puts everything right in line with that being a credible potential ignition source. And then he goes and, Bill, I can't eliminate arson because I got two other fires up the road that were started.

Speaker 2 43:50

Yeah, you're like that is suspicious and an eyewitness.

Speaker 3 43:52

But being a good investigator and he is a good investigator he says I got to leave the door open on this one. I'll go investigate the other two.

Speaker 2 44:02

So he had the forethought to leave essentially the door.

Speaker 3 44:04

Yeah, so he was. He was so he had. He actually marked the fire, undetermined um and um had good reasoning behind it and um went to the other two fires and he actually marked those as um. Um as hot starts off the, off the 91, and um a hot starts basically just open flame ignition.

Speaker 2 44:23

Okay, that's my next question.

Speaker 1 44:25

I was waiting for you to ask. I'm sorry. No, that's okay.

Speaker 2 44:28

And so when you say open flame ignition, let's like even more like a lighter, a match. Is that the kind of thing that we're talking about?

Speaker 1 44:37

Do you want me to address it, Bill? Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:39

No, 100%, 100%. It's an active hand. You're right on the money with that. Okay, um, you're sparking a lighter, you're striking a match you're um using a plumbing torch yeah, okay, um, any of those things would be, or flare, road flare oh, road flare creative any of those things would be considered an open flame device okay, yeah, okay yeah, so um, and that's what he.

Speaker 3 45:03

He marked the other as and he said he didn't have any evidence of an engine or exhaust leak that could have caused this, or we call it honeycomb If you find part of that Cadillac converter up there. He didn't see anything like that. And then he had the witness reports on his 911 calls as well as ours that had a report of somebody lighting these fires off the Ortega.

Ember Cast and Fire Investigation Progression

Speaker 1 45:27

And the reason it's called honeycomb is when that internal components of that Cadillac converter fell and they get ejected outside your exhaust. It looks like a honeycomb, it looks like a beehive honeycomb and that just means that that Cadillac converter has failed. It starts breaking off, it'll eject into the side of the road. Typically when you go uphill you're asking for more power, it's super hot, it's burning off and then it ejects out. And I'm not aware of downhill, but yeah.

Speaker 2 45:54

Super, super hot and essentially those are like ember type things right.

Speaker 1 45:58

It's not I mean ember in my mind. I think of like a little ember floating from a fire, from a tree, or something. This is like it can be, anywhere from like a couple inches to small, but you will see a honeycomb.

Speaker 2 46:10

Oh, wow, okay, I didn't realize it was so big. Okay, so yeah, that can do serious damage. I mean, an ember can do serious damage. What is it? Five miles and light a whole house on fire.

Speaker 1 46:19

Typically ember cast, it's not a mile.

Speaker 2 46:30

Oh, a mile, Okay, yeah, and there's some factors as far as weather.

Speaker 3 46:32

Yeah, totally, totally and wind, but essentially a significantly larger oh, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. So after, after that, um, that day again we go back to the office and, uh, this is obviously these. These three fires have jumped, you know, high in, high in a number count, and we're going over recapping the events, trying to find the suspect and my partner who works with the ATF basically tells me he has a contact through the FBI and he goes.

Speaker 1 47:04

maybe we can reach out. Okay, so we're going to stop it here. This will be the end of part one.

Speaker 2 47:10

You're going to make me wait.

Speaker 1 47:11

I'm sorry, but we'll continue up in part two of this. It gets even more wackier and you'll have some jaw-dropping moments, but we'll continue it on in the next episode. Is that fair?

Speaker 2 47:25

That's fair. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 47:27

Okay, all right.